Waste Management in the Weyr

[Erica]

I know...I keep coming up with the questions that no one really thinks (or wants to) think about...

But err... who & how is waste management handled in the weyr?
(I may be wrong in thinking that holds may use similar methods to those in medieval europe and england but those wouldn't--I don't think--work as well in the weyr due to numbers and physical set-up)


Was dealing with human waste something that was built into the weyrs by those who founded them? (I know the founders had good grasps of hygene)

So:

Are there waste ducts/ tunnels that allow use of the "necessay" inside the weyr...

Are there rows or stalls of latrines that are manually dug & cleaned on a rota basis?

Is there a method of running water that (like with the bathing pools) carries the waste away? (the other issue with the waste being carried away is where would it end up? Raw sewage ...goes where?

(although I'd like to imagine they have running water inside the weyr for plumbing--I don't know? Anyone else have any idea about that??)


Ok, now with these ever so appealing questions I'm off for lunch!

[Hope]

Hmm...they had bathing pools, many of them heated by thermal springs. It wouldn't be inconceivable that they'd maintain some sort of indoor plumbing. The trouble is that no sewage tank endures for thousands of years without emptying! And where to send all that lovely raw sewage....

If we are willing to fantasize a little, we could postulate that communal privies were built into the Weyr in such a way that a jet of superheated water further along not only provided the suction, but also killed the bacteria, delivering fertilizer rather than raw sewage to the final depository. This is more pleasant than plausible, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief if we can't come up with something else sustainable....

And how about dragon waste? Hatchlings can't "go" Between.

[Andrea]

Well, you always see "mucking out the Weyrling Barracks" as a popular punishment for weyrlings. Not that I can see dragon hatchlings pooping in their sleep spaces. Too dignified. But it's bound to happen once or twice. Perhaps there's a pile in the Bowl somewhere. heh. The poop pile.

But if there isn't "indoor plumbing" per se, there's always the outhouse style bathroom. Dig a hole and cover it with dirth when it's full. It's stinky, but it works. But it's a breeding ground for disease unless you're careful.

[Hope]

I think we want to keep Pern as pleasant as possible...and I hate outhouses! How did the ancient Greeks and Romans deal with this? How about ancient China? I hate to think of long lines of drudges emptying chamber pots....

[Suki]

We don't want to consider the ancient Greek's way, trust me. See for yourself: www.historyforkids.org/learn/greeks/science/sewage.htm :-)

But the ancient Roman's way is better... www.historyforkids.org/learn/romans/science/sewage.htm is more easily explained as to what Pern might have followed. I think that would be the recommended way to go.

Though the ancient Chinese did this: english.peopledaily.com.cn/200108/18/eng20010818_77602.html , I don't think its as practical as the Romans.

Comments?

[Hope]

The Roman way does look much better, but...the Pernese, when they settled Pern, did have the concept of treating sewage. So what sustainable method could they have come up with? Chemical? Heat? Biological? Engineered bacteria that live off E.Coli, etc, but die on contact with salt water would be awesome for coastal areas, but inland holds would need some other safeguards. If people don't die off every year of dysentery, they need to be doing something! Is this yet another use for HNO3?

[janet]

I have read about sawdust or other organic matter being used in open cesspool to create a thermal composting reaction, but weyrs aren't exactly rich in that resource. I think either HNO3 or heat sterilization is the key. Could Aquaducts collect the waste in cesspools which could then be treated either with concentrated HNO3 or sterilized by dragon fire?

[Hope]

I like HNO3...since in weaker forms it's used as a fertilizer, that makes the end product excellent for fields. Yes, the run-off would mature marshes at the edge of the sea, but marshes are excellent for growing lots of stuff...bogberries, some kinds of tubers...and for supporting water fowl.

[Andy]

I remember in TWD a scene where Jaxom is in the bathroom and is in a stall relieving himself, or was he helping someone who was very drunk..haven't read that book in turns. I think it was at one of the larger holds so it sounds like at least in the larger (and older?) holds and weyrs that they had bathrooms with running water to flush away the wastes. Now what they did with them after it were out of the house...just remember these people had access to a huge knowledge base, they turned their backs to much of it, but I would think that they took the best low tech with them and there is a lot that can be done as far as waste treatment with out using any chemicals or high tech machinery what so ever.

[Hope]

Very true, Andy, but the waste still has to go <somewhere>!
And the technology has to be reproduced or adapted for the newer Holds and Weyrs, at a much lower knowledge base level.

So we have more evidence that they do have at least Roman style plumbing, and I'm reasonably sure that they do something to treat it. Does anyone want to get further into it than that, or do we leave it here, off screen?

Gee, if every member could agree to re-read one of the books, we could pool knowledge! I volunteer for the Harper Hall trilogy, as my 9 year old is ready for the first two.

[Chantal]

No one's mentioned the use of lime (limestone), which I've always heard of being used to keep latrines clean. I'm sure the military uses a more modern chemical now, but lime is what used to be used. And I agree about preferring the Roman style.

[Anna]

Heat kills the bacteria in waste that makes it harmful, right? After the bacteria is killed, it can be used as fertilizer?

So here's an idea. Cisterns collect rainwater outside the Weyr, high up on the mountain, so gravity can work for us. Privy stalls are in each bathing chamber, and a system of wastewater channels were tunneled from the cisterns to each privy. At the very lowest level of the Weyr, the wastewater dumps out into a system of seives: first a close-woven 'net' to catch solid waste, underneath that sand and charcoal filters for the water to be cleansed, before being channelled out to the ocean. On a daily basis, the solid waste nets could be collected, clean ones replacing them, then hauled outside to be 'cooked.' After cooking, they could be delivered to the farmers of the weyr for fertilizer.

I can envision this, but I'm not an engineer. I have no idea if it would actually work, but it seems like, to me, it would.

[Chantal]

Using lava tubes might be an alternative to tunneling--or at least used in conjunction with it. I hate to think of having to tunnel all the way through the mountain for all those waste pipes.

[Deb]

Hmm I would go for anything but what my son had in Iraq last tour. Waste was collected in bags and then taken out and burned once a week. Needless to say that wasn't his favorite duty.

[ginnystar]

Hello, Ginny here and this topic is what got me want to put my two cents or marks as you could say, for they did have something in which all of the six orginal Wyers were carved using the stone cutters, to make channels to the under ground lava domes, two shafts cut one for water going in and hot steam going out. Ones the stone cutter ran out, I would think pipes were used to bring the warm water to and from. Also used to send waste water, and such out to were it could be treated, just had a twig of an idea here, in DE/RSR they still have recycling plants and such. I've been thinking on this one, sorry if my writting is short, had a real life thing happen to me and its effect how long I can type before my fingers goto sleep.